"If God is not temporal He cannot do anything...."
This is new to me. I have often heard that God exists outside of time. And in order for there to be finite things (things with a beginning and an end) God must be infinite and without a beginning and an end. God says He is the I AM. He has always been and always will be. I'd have to disagree with Koukl on this one. Is there any reference to God creating time in the bible? Does creation only exist in time? Does John 1:1 support the argument of God having a beginning? How could God have a beginning? Would He have to be created? (No). Wouldn't it make sense that He has always existed, even if that's hard for us to grasp?
Source: YouTube
Wow, these are some hard questions. I do not think Koukl means to say that God is not infinite. He acknowledges that God knows all of history. I do not think God is bound by time, and yet, God does keep time constant. I believe He's always existed (even before creation), but that He keeps the present moment present (though for Himself, I think He exists both temporally and eternally...but my own reasoning cannot make sense of the issue. All I know is that He knows all time, and is not bound in the present moment in the way we are. I would hate to limit God to existing only atemporally in eternity (unable to affect the present moment) or to only existing temporally (unable to determine eternity). I think God is big enough to exist in both senses. Even though Isaiah 46:9-10 may not answer the entire question (God may leave us wondering about some things) I find these verses encouraging.
ReplyDeleteI also find it encouraging to discuss matters with someone who values the spiritual wellbeing of the coming generation.
I agree I don't think he is bound by time either, but keeps control of it. But doesn't this hinder God's omnipresence? I believe that God came down to earth into time in Jesus Christ. I think otherwise, He is out of time. The way I understand it is that He has already planned everything and has set the spindle to tick tock for a limited time. Even the moment He came down to earth He had that set already in time. But I can't say for sure how He works in or out of time. I'd have to admit, as Thomas Aquinas did, that I know nothing. It may not make any difference in our salvation to fully understand His omniscience and omnipresence. God works beyond what we know. I think it's important to understand that there are some things we will not know for sure. But we have the ability to find out so much about our Lord. And the place to look is in His book.
ReplyDeleteYeah, you're probably right that God exists both temporal and eternal. I have a lot to read and study.
Thanks Anne, I'm really happy to discuss these things with someone of my age with the same concern for the well-being of the next generation of Christians.
I'd like to add that not only can we know about the Lord in the Bible.. we can know about Him in nature.. of course! And check the Bible if I'm right about that too. I'd suggest that anyone reading the stuff on my website to check the Bible if it's true. I'm always open to comments!
ReplyDeleteAt this point I believe that if God works in time it doesn't hinder His omniscience or ability to be everywhere at once. I still have to disagree with Koukl. I believe that God works in time and exists eternally.
ReplyDeleteYou would probably side with C.S. Lewis then (Mere Christianity Book 4 chapter 3). But you said that God has the universe ticking...so do you believe there's a present moment at all? He sees the universe all planned out, but does He not control the present moment (know which moment we are passing now)? When we exist with God in eternity, I do not think this will remove the idea of having a present moment either...maybe that's not what you're saying. But yes, God speaks to us in creation as well. Psalm 19, Romans 1:20. And yes, sadly, as adults, we have such limited understanding compared to the faith of children, to whom the Father reveals much (Luke 10:21). No matter how much theory I learn about children not being able to think deeply, I would beg to differ.
ReplyDeleteThe way Schaeffer explained it was, that man and God make the changes in the present. I can't actually articulate what he really said because I don't have his book with me. Maybe I have covered this before, but maybe I'll cover this again in the future when I have a bigger understanding of it.
ReplyDeleteGod has control and knows what is gonna happen, and because of God's grace, man has the choice to make decisions. He controls the present, past, and future. What has happened happened for a reason. What will happen is based on our decisions and by God's grace. He can end time if He wants, but I think He has already given us an allotted time-frame to learn about Him through thick and thin. He gives us the challenges in life to learn and discern who He is and His goodness. How could we follow a King we don't revere or know, or a King who plays with us like marionettes? No, He is not like that, He gave us free will because He is loving. We have the choice to follow Him or not. He displays His love and mercy by giving us life. But if we reject it we are left with no hope. God is the reason we live, the meaning to life, and the giver of life. And we must have faith that He is in control as the Scripture says. I can't wait till eternity! I'm looking forward to the future! And that's what we as believers have; faith in the future, because God makes it possible!
I might be wrong about Schaeffer. I can't really remember exactly what he was saying. I need to read it again and think about it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you so far, but the free will and determinism question is by no means easy. Yes, God knows what will happen...I do not believe in open theology (it draws away from God's omniscience or control). But saying God knows the future is different than saying He forces our future actions. And even what we do out of our free will He works into His plan, even when we try and mess up His plan. Now that's amazing!
ReplyDeleteAgreed! I think I'll leave this subject alone until I learn more about it before I make a mistake and end up with a loose theology. Yikes! Always check Scripture.
ReplyDeleteGod Bless you Anne!
Yes, I need to be reminded of checking Scripture so often. God bless you too, Mika.
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